Yet another Pathetic Pagan blog entry that cried out for a response, this time on the "waa waa, I don't bleed so I can't lead" school of "you must change your tradition to suit my ego" school.
I commented (and am posting it here because it probably will be disappeared if it gets any up arrows)
The Dianic traditions were started because of the limitations of traditional Wicca regarding women and in particular, lesbian women. Leo Martelleo started the gay male covens for the same reasons back in the mid seventies. The Radical Faeries yet another example. In Paganism we do not hold some mythical afterlife of punishment for not following any given tradition as a sword over anyone's head. Paganism has a long proud history of new traditions arising to fill a need that hasn't been met.
Women of transsexed history have participated in women's mysteries all around the world including among the Aborigines of Australia in both the near and ancient past. Why is this suddenly an issue? Why haven't those who insist they need a new tradition for genderqueer and transgender people started one? Are you aware that transsexual priestesses were part of EVERY Mother Goddess tradition of the ancient world. That by setting women up in an oppositional class of "cis" you are actually defining yourself out of womanhood? (and by your own hand) That there is an entire body of trans focused mysteries that is still celebrated today and was a rich part of the Roman practices... open to all?
It is the height of egotism to demand a tradition change itself to suit one's self. To deny access to women and men to mysteries based on your own personal physical differences. Women cannot take part in men's mysteries either and vice versa. Yes, it can major suck to deal with being trans but that is not the be all and end all of suckyness people have to deal with for being different. Enough of the oppression Olympics already and move on just as thousands of women of transsexed history have done before you.
The response:
I commented (and am posting it here because it probably will be disappeared if it gets any up arrows)
The Dianic traditions were started because of the limitations of traditional Wicca regarding women and in particular, lesbian women. Leo Martelleo started the gay male covens for the same reasons back in the mid seventies. The Radical Faeries yet another example. In Paganism we do not hold some mythical afterlife of punishment for not following any given tradition as a sword over anyone's head. Paganism has a long proud history of new traditions arising to fill a need that hasn't been met.
Women of transsexed history have participated in women's mysteries all around the world including among the Aborigines of Australia in both the near and ancient past. Why is this suddenly an issue? Why haven't those who insist they need a new tradition for genderqueer and transgender people started one? Are you aware that transsexual priestesses were part of EVERY Mother Goddess tradition of the ancient world. That by setting women up in an oppositional class of "cis" you are actually defining yourself out of womanhood? (and by your own hand) That there is an entire body of trans focused mysteries that is still celebrated today and was a rich part of the Roman practices... open to all?
It is the height of egotism to demand a tradition change itself to suit one's self. To deny access to women and men to mysteries based on your own personal physical differences. Women cannot take part in men's mysteries either and vice versa. Yes, it can major suck to deal with being trans but that is not the be all and end all of suckyness people have to deal with for being different. Enough of the oppression Olympics already and move on just as thousands of women of transsexed history have done before you.
The response:
“Why is this suddenly an issue?”
It didn't become an issue suddenly, it's been an issue for a long time.
“Why haven't those who insist they need a new tradition for genderqueer and transgender people started one? “
Because the folks who are demanding that we go celebrate our own mysteries aren't us. I'd be leery of a “trans Mystery” created by someone who invalidates my gender identity and insults me.
“That by setting women up in an oppositional class of "cis" you
are actually defining yourself out of womanhood? (and by your own
hand) “
Being cisgender is the antonym of being transgender. Both are descriptive traits for different kinds of people. Being cisgender means that you identify with the gender that you were assigned at birth. Being transgender means that you do not. Being a cisgender woman or a transgender woman does not make you less of a woman, anymore than being a cisgender or transgender man. It's a label used to describe the different experiences we have in relation to our gender
identities.
“That there is an entire body of trans focused mysteries that is still
celebrated today and was a rich part of the Roman practices... open
to all?”
If it's open to all, then it's not a trans Mystery, now is it? Also,
there are plenty of Pagan trans folks that aren't Roman
reconstructionists. That works just fine for modern day Gallae like
those who worship at the Matreum of Cybele. Not so much for every
other tradition out there.
“It is the height of egotism to demand a tradition change itself to suit
one's self. To deny access to women and men to mysteries based on
your own personal physical differences.”
I'm demanding nothing of the sort. I wouldn't have people denied access to women's or men's mysteries based on our physical differences – that's the problem that I'm raising here, that that is what is happening.
“Yes, it can major suck to deal with being trans but that is not the be all and end all of suckyness people have to deal with for being
different. Enough of the oppression Olympics already and move on just
as thousands of women of transsexed history have done before you.”
Oppression Olympics suggests that I am trying to compare or compete in claims of being oppressed. I'm really not sure how I did that here. In
engaging in this dialogue I am trying to move on, I'm trying to
introduce people to concepts that they may not have understood
before, may not have considered before, and may want to consider.
What I wrote was not about oppression, it was about empowerment. It was about claiming our rightful place, knowing who we are and not
allowing hostility and hatred to overcome us. There are far more of
us than most people realize, and we're not going away, and at some
point folks are going to have to deal with our presence. There are
plenty of womens' groups that will accept transwomen, and there are
some mens' groups that will accept trans men, and in the long run
we're going to see that being the rule rather than the hateful,
exclusive exception.
Why does it bother you so much that another woman wants to engage in womens' rites, when you claim that it has happened in every society?
And my reply:
It didn't become an issue suddenly, it's been an issue for a long time.
“Why haven't those who insist they need a new tradition for genderqueer and transgender people started one? “
Because the folks who are demanding that we go celebrate our own mysteries aren't us. I'd be leery of a “trans Mystery” created by someone who invalidates my gender identity and insults me.
“That by setting women up in an oppositional class of "cis" you
are actually defining yourself out of womanhood? (and by your own
hand) “
Being cisgender is the antonym of being transgender. Both are descriptive traits for different kinds of people. Being cisgender means that you identify with the gender that you were assigned at birth. Being transgender means that you do not. Being a cisgender woman or a transgender woman does not make you less of a woman, anymore than being a cisgender or transgender man. It's a label used to describe the different experiences we have in relation to our gender
identities.
“That there is an entire body of trans focused mysteries that is still
celebrated today and was a rich part of the Roman practices... open
to all?”
If it's open to all, then it's not a trans Mystery, now is it? Also,
there are plenty of Pagan trans folks that aren't Roman
reconstructionists. That works just fine for modern day Gallae like
those who worship at the Matreum of Cybele. Not so much for every
other tradition out there.
“It is the height of egotism to demand a tradition change itself to suit
one's self. To deny access to women and men to mysteries based on
your own personal physical differences.”
I'm demanding nothing of the sort. I wouldn't have people denied access to women's or men's mysteries based on our physical differences – that's the problem that I'm raising here, that that is what is happening.
“Yes, it can major suck to deal with being trans but that is not the be all and end all of suckyness people have to deal with for being
different. Enough of the oppression Olympics already and move on just
as thousands of women of transsexed history have done before you.”
Oppression Olympics suggests that I am trying to compare or compete in claims of being oppressed. I'm really not sure how I did that here. In
engaging in this dialogue I am trying to move on, I'm trying to
introduce people to concepts that they may not have understood
before, may not have considered before, and may want to consider.
What I wrote was not about oppression, it was about empowerment. It was about claiming our rightful place, knowing who we are and not
allowing hostility and hatred to overcome us. There are far more of
us than most people realize, and we're not going away, and at some
point folks are going to have to deal with our presence. There are
plenty of womens' groups that will accept transwomen, and there are
some mens' groups that will accept trans men, and in the long run
we're going to see that being the rule rather than the hateful,
exclusive exception.
Why does it bother you so much that another woman wants to engage in womens' rites, when you claim that it has happened in every society?
And my reply:
Bother me? not in the least but you sidestep a MAJOR issue here.
When the transgender movement basically erased transsexuality in the
name of "opposition to the gender binary" they dismissed out of hand
those who transitioned and got on with their lives... as men or as women
without modifiers like myself. Funny how my long experience was that
when you approach a womens group as a woman rather than as a
trans-whatever, you are welcomed with open arms 99.9% of the time. The
fact of the matter is that when the transgender movement started using
"cis" as an oppositional position, and yes, that is exactly what it is,
it was to oppose the gender binary and it thus follows you surrender
all claims to womanhood or manhood in the process and thus any right to
participate in rituals that a woman or male specific. You can be a man
or you can be a woman but if you identify as trans, deny actual physical
realities as a result or oppose a gender binary, you are something
else. You cannot have your cake and eat it too and that is the
dishonesty that has personified the "trans inclusive" movement in
Paganism. Rather than participate in all the traditions that are not
binary specific, you demand those that are must change to suit yourself
and that my dear is pure ego entitlement. It is no different than if I
approached Baptists and insist/demand they switch to worshipping the
Goddess to accommodate my feelings and call them bigots if they refuse.
Your entitlement is showing big time. It takes a lot of work to start a new tradition or reclaim an ancient one and that is the real reason there are no trans specific, non binary traditions. Those with entitlement issues don't do the work, they demand everyone else change to suit their own worldview. As for the Cybeline mysteries, they are actual mysteries in the ancient sense, not discussed and experienced on a personal level, while the rituals leading up to them are open to all. If you are going to discuss mysteries, you should read up on what they actually are.
Your entitlement is showing big time. It takes a lot of work to start a new tradition or reclaim an ancient one and that is the real reason there are no trans specific, non binary traditions. Those with entitlement issues don't do the work, they demand everyone else change to suit their own worldview. As for the Cybeline mysteries, they are actual mysteries in the ancient sense, not discussed and experienced on a personal level, while the rituals leading up to them are open to all. If you are going to discuss mysteries, you should read up on what they actually are.
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